{"id":1865,"date":"2026-08-08T08:11:48","date_gmt":"2026-08-08T15:11:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/?p=1865"},"modified":"2026-08-08T08:11:48","modified_gmt":"2026-08-08T15:11:48","slug":"win-the-trade-mentality-fantasy-football","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/2026\/08\/08\/win-the-trade-mentality-fantasy-football\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201cWin the Trade\u201d Mentality Takes the Fun Out of Fantasy Football"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">With real games not all that far away, let\u2019s take a targeting shot right at the helmet earhole of a fantasy football problem: ridiculous trade offers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I play in a lot of leagues \u2013 looking like about 25 this year. The vast majority of those are dynasty leagues. Just when I keep hoping that trade offers will begin to get more equitable, I sometimes get the feeling it\u2019s going the other way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Problem With Trying to \u201cWin\u201d Every Trade<\/h2>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/fantasy-football-lobby\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1024\" height=\"819\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM-1024x819.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1592\" style=\"aspect-ratio:1.2503089647304877;width:257px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM-1024x819.png 1024w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM-300x240.png 300w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM-768x615.png 768w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM-850x680.png 850w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ChatGPT-Image-Apr-30-2026-at-02_41_12-PM.png 1402w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The volume of absurd trade offers I have gotten this offseason is staggering. Increasingly, we seem to have too many managers whose great desire is to get over on a fellow manager. The number of trades needing to be reviewed seems to be increasing, so there clearly are folks who are falling victim to dynasty managers who are the fantasy football equivalent of scammers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A dead giveaway is the number of offers that fly around where it\u2019s obvious that a manager is trying to get someone else to take out their trash. The proliferation of offers containing players who aren\u2019t keepers is maddening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s a sad state of affairs. Sure, we\u2019re playing for a cash prize, but fantasy football is a fun-as-all-get-out hobby, especially for old folks like me. Why be a manager who tries to take the fun out of it for others by sending ridiculous trade offers?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Why be a \u201cwin the trade\u201d guy? I see it as an epidemic of epic proportions in fantasy football. Maybe the disease has been there for a long time. Maybe it has been there from the outset. But it seems to be a cancer for which there is no cure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Fantasy football message boards are infested with this \u201cwin the trade\u201d garbage, and whenever it started, wherever it started, whoever started it, it needs to stop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A Good Fantasy Football Trade Helps Both Teams<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There does not need to be a winner in a trade. A trade should benefit both sides. A trade should help both teams be better, either now or in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you\u2019re one of those fantasy managers who approaches every trade offer with that \u201cwin the trade\u201d mentality, shame on you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In pretty much every league, there are fantasy managers who are great trade partners. You peck away at a deal until both sides are happy, and both sides come away with something that makes both teams better.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In many leagues, there seem to be managers who take the stance that they have to win the trade. I absolutely dislike dealing with those sorts of fantasy managers. They take the fun out of trading. They show that the more they can screw someone over, the happier they are. To them, I say screw you. I\u2019d use a different word, but it would get edited out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s so annoying to go on a fantasy football message board and see people posting screen shots of their trades and asking if they won the trade. One person sees that post, then there\u2019s another screen shot, then another, and on and on. Yuck.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s an epidemic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Winning the trade should not be the goal. If that\u2019s your goal, the heck with you. If we\u2019re going to negotiate a trade, and your motivation is to assure that you won the trade, and I lost it, I\u2019ll sniff that out. I don\u2019t want to trade with you. I\u2019ll remember who you are. I don\u2019t want to be in the same league with you. I\u2019ll hit that Avoid button that DataForce offers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cWin the trade\u201d fantasy managers are bad for fantasy football. They alienate others in the league. Over time, no one wants to deal with those people. You learn who they are. You don\u2019t even make offers to them anymore because you know what they\u2019re going to counter with \u2013 some stupid offer that is clearly substantially in their favor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This \u201cwin the trade\u201d mentality is why leagues need commissioners and a process to overturn trades. DataForce does a tremendous job with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One last thought about trades: When you list someone in your Trade Bait, that doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re willing to give him away. At least I don\u2019t mean that. What Trade Bait means to me is these are guys I\u2019m willing to trade. Too often, offers come in for Trade Bait players that are way below market value. As in stupid below market value. The title of that is Trade Bait, not Salvation Army Fire Sale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Enough for the rant of the day \u2013 let\u2019s move on to the fun stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>10 players I like a lot this season:<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n\n<div style=\"overflow-x:auto; margin:20px 0;\">\n<table style=\"width:100%; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:16px; border-radius:8px; overflow:hidden;\">\n<thead>\n<tr style=\"background-color:#111; color:#fff;\">\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Player<\/th>\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Team\/Pos.<\/th>\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Why I Like Them<\/th>\n<\/tr>\n<\/thead>\n<tbody>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Bijan Robinson<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Falcons RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">What\u2019s not to like? Dude is a total stud. Give him the ball every dang play. Hand it to him. Throw it to him. Just give it to him.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Jahmyr Gibbs<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Lions RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">I\u2019ve never pulled the trigger on him in the past. Just wasn\u2019t sure he was the real deal. I was wrong. I\u2019m all in on him in 2026.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Chase Brown<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Bengals RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">He\u2019s solid every year. He has no significant backup. With Ja\u2019Marr Chase and Tee Higgins on the outside, teams can\u2019t stack the box against him.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Josh Allen<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Bills QB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve ever taken a QB in the first round of any draft ever. I might do it this year if I\u2019m late In Round 1.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Tetairoa McMillan<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Panthers WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Seems like lots of folks are expecting a sophomore slump. I\u2019ll take my chances.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Terry McLaurin<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Commanders WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Had him on a lot of teams last season, and it was painful. Still have him on a lot of dynasty teams. I\u2019m expecting a big rebound season.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Kyren Williams<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Rams RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Dude is the Rodney Dangerfield of fantasy football. Doesn\u2019t get nearly the respect he deserves. I\u2019ll take him. Every time.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Emeka Egbuka<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Buccaneers WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Really curious to see how his career evolves with Mike Evans totally gone. And Chris Godwin isn\u2019t getting any younger.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">David Montgomery<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Texans RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">He gets to be \u201cthe guy\u201d again, this time in Houston. I\u2019ll take him as my RB2 on every team I can get him.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr>\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Tony Pollard<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Titans RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">This one is selfish. I have him on a fair number of dynasty teams. I need him to have a career year. Please.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong><strong>10 players I\u2019m avoiding this season:<\/strong><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div style=\"overflow-x:auto; margin:20px 0;\">\n<table style=\"width:100%; border-collapse:collapse; font-size:16px; border-radius:8px; overflow:hidden;\">\n<thead>\n<tr style=\"background-color:#111; color:#fff;\">\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Player<\/th>\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Team\/Pos.<\/th>\n<th style=\"padding:12px; text-align:left;\">Why I\u2019m Avoiding Them<\/th>\n<\/tr>\n<\/thead>\n<tbody>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Rashee Rice<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Chiefs WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">An easy call. I managed to trade him away anywhere I had him after his first transgression. I have trouble believing Andy Reid really wants him around.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Puka Nacua<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Rams WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Yeah, he puts up great numbers. But, yeah, what\u2019s up with that strange off-field stuff? As the saying goes, where\u2019s there\u2019s smoke, there\u2019s fire.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Christian McCaffrey<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">49ers RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">I\u2019ve won leagues when I\u2019ve had him. I\u2019ve finished last in leagues when I\u2019ve had him. All depends on his health. I don\u2019t like the odds.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Malik Nabers<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Giants WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Is he really on the road to recovery from knee surgery? Seems like there still is some fuzziness surrounding his situation.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Drake Maye<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Patriots QB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">I\u2019m not buying the hype. I\u2019m not buying him being the second-best fantasy QB behind Josh Allen. My prediction \u2013 very noticeable regression.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Josh Jacobs<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Packers RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">His exit from the Raiders was a little rough. He got reinvigorated in Green Bay. Now questions about this guy have returned.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Davante Adams<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Rams WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">He\u2019s 33 now. Can he put up the kinds of numbers he put up last season? I don\u2019t think so.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd; background:#f9f9f9;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Christian Watson<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Packers WR<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Honestly, I don\u2019t dislike the Packers. But I\u2019ve never understood the love affair some fantasy analysts have with this guy.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr style=\"border-bottom:1px solid #ddd;\">\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">Jaxson Dart<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Giants QB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Honestly, I don\u2019t dislike the Giants, either. But I dislike the decision this guy made in the offseason. Talent aside, someone else can have him.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<tr>\n<td style=\"padding:10px; font-weight:bold;\">J.K. Dobbins<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">Broncos RB<\/td>\n<td style=\"padding:10px;\">I have him on an orphan I bought. I\u2019ll ride with him. But I made sure I drafted Jonah Coleman. Dobbins won\u2019t stay on the field. He never does.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\ud83c\udfc8<strong>Leagues Forming Now at DataForce Fantasy Football!&nbsp;<\/strong><em>\ud83c\udfc8<br><\/em>Ready to draft? We offer the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/fantasy-football-games\">widest variety<\/a> with the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/prize-payouts\">best prize payouts<\/a> anywhere!<br>Come check out what we have available <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/fantasy-football-lobby\">in our lobby<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/orphan-marketplace\">Orphan Marketplace<\/a>.<br>Join the fun and draft your winning team today at <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/\">DataForceFF.com<\/a><\/strong>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large is-resized\"><a href=\"https:\/\/apps.apple.com\/us\/app\/dataforce-fantasy-football\/id1561081620\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"866\" height=\"308\" data-id=\"1516\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-4-22-26-at-9.15-AM.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1516\" style=\"width:115px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-4-22-26-at-9.15-AM.jpeg 866w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-4-22-26-at-9.15-AM-300x107.jpeg 300w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-4-22-26-at-9.15-AM-768x273.jpeg 768w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-4-22-26-at-9.15-AM-850x302.jpeg 850w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 866px) 100vw, 866px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large is-resized\"><a href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/store\/apps\/details?id=com.app.dataforcefantasyfootball\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"960\" height=\"285\" data-id=\"1518\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-1-1.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1518\" style=\"width:128px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-1-1.jpeg 960w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-1-1-300x89.jpeg 300w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-1-1-768x228.jpeg 768w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Image-1-1-850x252.jpeg 850w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n<\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-4335d715 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\" style=\"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--superbspacing-small);padding-bottom:0\"><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-full is-resized has-custom-border\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"173\" height=\"173\" src=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/07\/fantasygranddaddy-edited.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-806\" style=\"border-radius:50%;aspect-ratio:1.0389610389610389;width:88px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/07\/fantasygranddaddy-edited.jpg 173w, https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/07\/fantasygranddaddy-edited-150x150.jpg 150w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 173px) 100vw, 173px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-content-justification-left is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-f390f9f1 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading has-text-align-left has-contrast-color has-text-color has-superbfont-xsmall-font-size\">Fantasy Granddaddy<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left has-secondary-color has-text-color has-superbfont-xxsmall-font-size wp-block-paragraph\">Fantasy Sports Writer<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>With real games not all that far away, let\u2019s take a targeting shot right at the helmet earhole of a fantasy football problem: ridiculous trade offers. I play in a lot of leagues \u2013 looking like about 25 this year. The vast majority of those are dynasty leagues. Just when&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":1869,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[5],"tags":[651,553,674,643,644,676,673,336,675],"class_list":["post-1865","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-player-advice","tag-2026-fantasy-football","tag-dynasty-fantasy-football","tag-dynasty-trades","tag-fantasy-football-fades","tag-fantasy-football-targets","tag-fantasy-football-trade-offers","tag-fantasy-football-trade-strategy","tag-fantasy-football-trades","tag-trade-bait"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v28.8 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>\u201cWin the Trade\u201d Mentality Takes the Fun Out of Fantasy Football<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Fantasy football trades shouldn&#039;t have to produce a winner and loser. Here&#039;s why fair dealing makes leagues better, plus 20 players to target or avoid in 2026.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dataforceff.com\/blog\/2026\/08\/08\/win-the-trade-mentality-fantasy-football\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"\u201cWin the Trade\u201d Mentality Takes the Fun Out of Fantasy Football\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Fantasy football trades shouldn&#039;t have to produce a winner and loser. 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